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Mostly@Twilight's Hammer

Status: ACCEPTED
Submitted on: Mar 07, 2019 at 11:21 PM
I confirm that I have read the above guild rules and that failure to conform to these may result in loss of raid spot
Yes
If there are occasional issues with attendance, please let us know here

I'm available on discord virtually 24/7, and in case of emergency can warn as soon as I possibly can. So far haven't had any and not planning to, although I believe not many people plan to have some kind of emergency.

I have daytime work, and any evening activities like working out cinema etc are planned around the raids.

If you ask me to have 90% attendance I ask wtf am I supposed to do on last 10%.

Personal information

Name

Mostly "Paul" Harmless

Sex

Male

Age

26

Nationality

Belarus

Character information

Battletag [OPTIONAL]

Mostly#2755

Race and Class
Blood Elf Monk
Main Spec

Brewmaster

Off Spec(s) (only include if viable for progression)

Alts (comfortable playing for progression)

Potentially can play any tank. Of what I have currently, 409 bdk, and 400-ish prots (both), I can play veng/guardian but don't see any reason to at their current unfortunate state. Geared pally in a week for opulence, but RL decided hpal+ret is enough. Played/playing blood for meka (only dk).
Historically, in legion mained tanks when they were arguably strongest. Brew in NH, BDK in ToS (guild at the time never got to KJ), but played pally on maiden to give externals to brew cotank, VDH in antorus (took playing one to realize how op it was on 9/11 bosses). BDK on aggramar, pally on argus.
If current gearing meta stays you can expect me to get "suddenly" needed tank to sufficient gear level within a week without help.

Class Knowledge

Please tell us your opening rotation (bullet-point form or similar is fine). If you play multiple specialisations then please do this for each one

Pre-RJW, keg smash, then priority. W-why are you looking at me like that?

Brew doesn't have offensive CDs, any resources to build on pull, anything at all. There's some variety in using/not using taunt on pull since as brew it gives pretty much anything a 50% speed increase which can be either blessing or a curse. Occasionally boss is tapped with crackling jade lightning and then taunted and rotation ensues. If needed to be repositioned asap on pull.

Please tell us your general rotation or priority system (bullet-point form or similar is fine). If you play multiple specialisations then please do this for each one

ST: Blackout Strike -> Filler -> Filler ad nauseum
Filler is: Keg smash > breath of fire > rjw > tp (if enough energy to not delay next KS)
BoS strictly on CD is most important for both damage and survival since every cast gives a mastery stack (fat dodge chance). KS reduces cd on brews which is comparable, but delaying 7s cd KS by 1s is less harmful than delaying 3s BoS.

On AoE it becomes more hectic because it's no longer advisable to delay KS to play BoS off cd. Generally becomes KS>BoF>BoS>RJW>TP priority.

Please list your current stat priority (screenshots of your character profile on SimCraft/RaidBots will also suffice), and then explain the benefits of each stat for your specialisation, making sure to include any softcaps or breakpoints you are aiming for

Offensive stat priorities are easily simmed, but currently brew does kinda irrelevant damage both ST and aoe, so optimizing secondaries for damage is kinda dumb outside of farm content while optimizing for ehrps can be noticeable, and can be beneficial.
Overall idea is that thanks to stagger brew has such a massive ehp pool that boosting it further does little to nothing, you ain't gonna get bursted down except for magic damage. In the meantime there are quite clear and effective ways to reduce required healing, giving healers more gcds to use on raid or to do damage.
Therefore general defensive stat priority: Mastery > Armour ≥ Versa ≥ crit > haste > agility (point for point).

Naturally it means that ilvl is usually a gain regardless of stats, but mastery is big enough for socket to be worth some ilvl on some non-ring pieces.
Agility only gives marginal increase in stagger % and dodge. While ehp increase with stagger is about same as scaling of ehp with mainstat for other tanks, it doesn't actually reduce damage all that much since only a fracture of it is removed with purifies.
Mastery gives more dodges, and a lot of mechanics/tank busters are dodgeable, while autoattacks are the most of damage intake. Brew mastery is also a "bad luck protection" for dodge in itself, so relying on it isn't unsafe at all.
Crit increases all incoming healing and absorbs, including self healing. Suffers from overhealing danger/potential.
Versa is just raw DR and self healing increase. Atm can't be realistically stacked to a point where it makes noticeable impact on magic nukes, and benefit of increasing ehp is kinda wasted on brew. Closer to end of xpac will be beneficial to have high versa set for specific fights.
Haste gives more purifies per unit of time. Unlike death strike, purify reduces pool that feeds it, so every extra added purify is less effective than previous ones. Actual value varies wildly from fight to fight, but usually isn't high.
Armour has unfortunately overblown perception of value for brew. With base being about 20% dr on mythic bosses, gemhide-sized chunk of armour is about 2% damage reduction, which looks _massive_ on paper! In reality, there's exactly 0 value in extra armour on hits that are dodged, and damage that is eventually purified also works as multiplicative dr when you look into it. And then there's about 10% health return from post-dr damage intake via gift or the ox orbs. With all that considered, armour ends up being good, but not mind-blowingly great stat.

In the end of the day, I'm utterly screwed by ilvl and warforges. 420+425 "tier" pieces lock me into suboptimal stats which I can't improve without getting insane forges+sockets on better pieces. Left to maximize mastery elsewhere and cry.

Please list your current talent setup, without abbreviations, detailing for each row whether the choice changes for Single Target, Cleave, and AoE

T15: discouragingly unimpactful, Eye is picked by most in most content simply because it's passive and doesn't require micromanaging for miniscule gain (which isn't even always a gain).
Eye of the Tiger: default. Some _passive_ hps and dps that is conveniently also highest for ST.
Chi Wave: a bit more healing that Eye in exchange for some less dps. With most of the extra healing being on random party/raid members it's not a good raid pick (often wasted) and extra gcd every 15s isn't always available. Decent option for m+.
Chi Burst: good for burst aoe which is some m+ and raid fight with aoe lining up with it.

T30: mobility tier.
Chi Torpedo: default. Much longer roll and 10s speed buff after it is bonkers. Taken most of the time because the most mobility in the tier, by far.
Tiger's Lust: picked for some m+ to counter/cheese roots and slows. In raid picked on demand when someone else needs a speed bump (ex. orb runners on ghuun). For personal mobility torpedo is virtually always better (it's possible to roll in place just gaining speed buff if that is required).
Celerity: taken instead of torpedo if torpedo makes you roll off the platforms. Many bothans have died on kingaroth to bring us this information. Also niche use: stormwall soaking ires via mad synergy with Exit Strategy trait (avoidance and roll cdr).

T45: resources.
Light Brewing: default. Just less cd on brews, used always. Simple and reliable.
Black Ox Brew: formally 1 extra brew per minute. With 100% uptime, perfect rotation execution and being actually able to use all those brews while hitting BoB off cd. All together mean it's never played since even theoretical gain is so marginal, while in practice LB is simply better due to being able to accumulate and reserve purifies until needed better.
Spitfire: has a chance to slightly increase uptime on meaningless 5% dr and dot that deals so little damage it shouldn't be keeping mobs in combat. Hilariously bad, although has niche in pvp.

T60: cc.
Ring of Peas: wise man's gorefiends. A lot of obvious uses when knockbacks are needed, and some smart niche uses every now and then.
Black Ox Statue: this totem is a better cotank than about half of players I've tanked with. While abuses of it in raid are somewhat timely fixed nowadays by blizzard, there is still room for it whenever group needs ez threat or just a targetable thingie. Ex. it was instantly grabbing solid aggro on crawgs on Zul, making crawg tank life much easier (aside from the part where totem sometimes was pulling aggro on crawgs that lived for like a minute...). On rastakhan I used it to bait bobsandy away from stunned raid on p1>2 transition. Conveniently it is used later on in p3 on top of CCd (in my guild anyway) casters so they have something to do for a few gcds after cc expires, and that "something" doesn't include murdering us. And then there's blockade p2, statue makes for great intervene target for warrior doing the soaks.
There's also a talent on the row that gives aoe stun 2y bigger range and given the alternatives it's about as good as empty slot.

T75: defensives.
Bob and Weave: default. Longer stagger duration means every tick hits for less, and there's always more stagger in the pool for more haste from HT and more mastery from ToN.
Dampen Harm: 2m defensive. Niche for when defensive is actually needed; usually brew just gets away with base stagger. So bleeds (like zul) or magic nukes (like caress on rastakhan) are great opportunity for the talent.
Healing Elixir: 2k+ hps. On demand 60k heals, 2 charges. Low-ish and/or magic-leaning damage intake makes it a nice choice. Primarily not in raids though.

T90: damage.
Rushing Jade Wind: constantly ticking making for easy pick up of adds and whatnot. Highest dps option. What else is there to say?
Special Delivery: less damage, kegs occasionally miss mobs, can break cc. Has 50% slow but even that isn't a redeeming factor in m+; using SD in raid atm is just absurd.
Invoke Niuzao: some burst ST damage on 3m cd. I used it back on Zul because duration aligned making it for mildly higher dps option than RJW, while minimizing unwanted crawgs damage. Has potential for burst phases if cd aligns. No use in BoD.
T100: traps.
High Tolerance: more ehp via extra stagger %, and more haste. Neither of two is very lucrative by itself, but together and with substantial amount of them makes for a solid talent.
Guard: "purify in advance". Absorbs damage that would otherwise go into stagger. In other words, damage that would otherwise be purified with that extra purify from HT. Has no niche in its current form.
Blackout Combo: primarily used to increase tiger palm damage. Ability that does 2.5k base damage. In 2019. Yeah. Stacking offspec traits actually makes talent a dps increase with massive survival loss. Another function is pausing stagger damage which had niche uses in past (Varimathras). Healing immunity mechanic in current raid has massive magic damage coming with it which is much scarier than pathetic autos, so pausing stagger isn't helpful compared to getting more ehp with HT.

An important note: failure to play optimal specialisations may result in loss of raid spot/being sat. Please confirm you have acknowledged this
Yes

Raid Related Info

What is your opinion on sitting during progression (potentially for multiple bosses)?

Benching tank is kinda a joke but there are situations when it can happen. If I fail to be able to field a tank that is needed (like not having dk for aggramar/meka) it's a pretty big issue that I aim not to have. Having dps play tank offspecs over actual tanks (who are benched) to maximize gear for people who need it on farm bosses is a weird optimization, but I would be all up for it. And, finally, having augur-like boss that needs only one tank: I'll be happy to sit if other tank is more fit to solo, and it's usually better to bring a dps main than tank on offspec.
In other circumstances benching a tank will make me ask what in the nine hells is going on.
Oh, I guess there's also this funny and totally reasonable approach to have trial tank benched if guild is finishing progress on boss and doesn't want to change horses. From personal experience, after about 1 month of it, it stops being reasonable, and becomes a different kind of funny altogether.

What is your opinion on Private vs Public logging?

With my tendency to take bitch jobs and switch to alts, murdering rankings, it makes little difference if I have any kills publicly logged or not. If I need to figure something out, private/unlisted log works. If I need someone else's help, I can provide them with enough info without giving any links. If I want to brag, screenshot will do.

Background information

Please list your previous guilds and a brief reason for leaving each of them (current expansion)

So far in BfA raided on Twilight's Hammer connected realm.

<Voltage>: 2d semi-casual guild that kinda died after killing vectis. Was reborn a few weeks ago, moved to draenor and I heard even cleared heroic! Jokes aside were good lads with cute officers and healers that healed tanks.

<Why no love>: they picked me instantly. CE at 700-ish rank, but had massive issues with reclear. Tl;dr: issues with tank healing that we together with healing team only managed to solve temporarily and it kept going back to shit. When top guild on realm tried to poach me I didn't resist. Felt like otherwise competent and actually trying to do good officers were too restricted by roster in place and available recruitment.

<Fam>: while I don't think I've had as much fun in wow as with those guys, on "uncensored toxic fun vs progression" there isn't enough weights towards progression.

Why have you chosen to apply to Weeping Angels?

I haven't had too serious thoughts about leaving current guild until Bamf suggested applying. <Fam> ain't a bad place to be even with somewhat sloppy prog. I can't be 100% sure if he was serious but what the hell, worth a shot, I've only heard good stuff and team looks solid when I tune into streams occasionally. Joining you folks would certainly be a significant step up for me, but the one I find myself capable of.

On my side I believe I can be a valuable asset to the guild with reliable attendance and raid performance, doing my homework and required boss and class research. I would already know my cotank and happily work with him.

Cheers for reading through, I hope to hear out from you some time in the near future.

Comments

9 Comments

Hi Paul, so I have a couple of questions which will be followed with recent log examples and a few baseline raider questions.

1. So you fully agree that blackout strike, regardless of whether you mastery stack or not, is your absolute #1 priority in order to minimize damage intake? Granted that with mastery stacking, this particular ability MUST be used on CD, or you'd lose a colossal chunk of mastery value, correct?

https://gyazo.com/ecbf70ea63292f6791f4658b88f1e628
https://gyazo.com/336ebdca478c2185aa8dd49dda6642f9
https://gyazo.com/ec241410d9a99a9bfbc761ff05dc1b7f

Notable difference in what you see here, from pretty much all abilities cast, and in the first SS I was even dead at one point. I personally don't stack mastery, because it's overkill. What do you make of those 3 particular examples?

2.
Therefore general defensive stat priority: Mastery > Armour ≥ Versa ≥ crit > haste > agility (point for point).

I categorically disagree with this priority. Because 1. You don't need to stack mastery, that is massive overkill due to the fact you can get 2-3 training of Niuzao with relative ease. Now that'll give you ~ 800+ mastery, providing plenty of dodge % as it is. The way I see it, the way i've experienced it and tested it all stats excluding haste are almost equal in defensive and offensive value depending on the traits you're utilizing. So for example personally I use crit, versa and mastery with emphasis on the first two. Crit has way better synergy with Elusive Footwork which while providing a very high defensive value, also has a dps value and on bosses such as Jaina, this matters.

Versa is just raw DR and self healing increase. Atm can't be realistically stacked to a point where it makes noticeable impact on magic nukes, and benefit of increasing ehp is kinda wasted on brew.

The problem with this sentence is you're saying you have to -stack- it. That's not how you optimize a brewmaster, you wanna balance 3 stats, or slam 2 of them, trying to hammer down on 1 doesn't work properly due to the fact we can utilize all 3 to almost the same value. Point for point. Also it stacks with Diamond Laced trinket providing a fairly neat extra bit of absorption. I.e my warrior's prisms absorbs 54k, my monks absorbs 56k. (Same ilvl)

Regarding Crit, this is a really strong offensive and defensive stat due to celestial fortune, and the synergy with elusive footwork traits. The way i've tried and tested it through 2 tiers now, is crit having higher value in both than mastery when combined with elusive footwork, even if it's not a humongous margain. However as I said, even without it is basically equal to the other secondaries excluding haste. This also scales with the Diamond Laced trinket.

You also put agility lowest in your priority, regardless of the stagger nerf that hit this tier, agility is still ridiculously high value compared to any of the secondary stats, especially if you're not using the correct traits. Offensively and defensively. To cap off this point about stats, I have an example with someone stacking mastery, vs someone who doesn't.

https://gyazo.com/1c46bfb6277f346c1a1c1fc25b9e7f36
Naturally, you could argue you can exclude some pulls due to global mistakes or similar but you know.. Look at the hits.
https://gyazo.com/b47c0e42746940941d45dc7d8bbe6499

Now don't take any of this as inquisitive. I merely just want your take on it as you can see here the person stacking mastery is not actually taking the least damage. What are your thoughts on that? Feel free to include all the examples in your response.

To cap it off, I think your application is definitely worth reading and appreciating. However I also think for a supposed high tier theorycrafter, your research seems conspicuously insufficient.

So as a summary of questions in case it got too convoluted:
1. Rotation priority and optimization
2. Stat priority variations
3. Potential research evidence to your statements (Optional, logs are welcome)


Also i'd make the screenshots show on the reply but it seems to not wanna load. Anyway looking forward to hearing back from you.
Applicant
Hello there! If I'll miss any of the points that are of concern to you please reiterate on them; I bear no desire to deflect any questions but quite a few of them seem to be semi-repeating.

1. In current meta, yes, because even most magic heavy fights in past few tiers had autos as top damage intake. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/511558315676008450/553585792342163469/firefox_LSIHkMggp3.png five blockade pulls (I'm on boss p2, only dispelled once per add) with average 57% dodge which means _actual_ autos contribution is insanely high. An argument can be made for delaying BoS if you have already have 100% stacks to BoS right after next auto, but more often than not it will lead to dps loss, making it a debatable tactic. Naturally I'd delay BoS by 0.5s to cast expel harm, but I guess it goes without saying. Unlike BoS, keg and bof do give some mitigation value on magic damage but those are never delayed by 1s, and their contribution is small enough to not be worth it on currently present damage profiles. If I somehow am out of brews and need to purify/isb _right now_ and only way is to change BoS and KS priority, yeah you do that but that's a brew managing mistake somewhere before that happening.


2. First of all, agility. When was the last time you actually saw your brewmasters' sims? Because agility wasn't top for me already half way into uldir. And right now... well, it's a bit funny: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/4GagXaZ53hqYjUTRD4qFJN (sim with SD because rjw tends to screw haste value due to imperfect APL).
If it's the quote ridiculously high value unquote, then we have a hard time to describe versa and crit. How about "tremendous"?
There's also argument about defensive value of agility. Unfortunately, it isn't correct either. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/511558315676008450/553616705264549888/unknown.png That's a hefty increase in EHP, but EHP isn't something brew needs help with. Typically we purify about 40% of staggered damage, which varies of course depending on damage pattern (<3 Fetid OT) but it doesn't really matter since... look there! https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/519507969306787890/553618841897533441/unknown.png Yep, 1k agility reduces damage via stagger by 1.2%. Of course, agility is also AP (which is lower point per point than mastery) and dodge (mainstat to dodge/parry has brutal DR).

Second thing to take from sim: secondaries don't matter offensively. If I move 1k from mastery to crit/versa I'll gain 70 dps. Seventy. I'm sorry, but that's within margin of error for the sim. It's completely irrelevant in the big picture. You'd go for it if stats were absolutely equal defensively, but they aren't.

It's funny that you specifically went hard on "hammering one stat" in versa paragraph when versa is one of the two stats in the game (together with avoidance) that has incremental returns when stacking. By having more you don't get reduced value but contrary, you get better and better! Adding 10% versa at 0 reduces your damage intake by 5%, doing so at 100% and you get double the effect.

Which is to say, versa is not an insane stat at lower budgets. In late legion I could stack up to 60-80% in specific circumstances, and even just getting extra 10-20% on demand could mean I can pass on using defensives against some magic nukes that were ehp checks (mostly in m+ though). Atm stat budget is low enough to not be able to do so, and as such versa is only valued by it's raw damage reduction and healing increase. It's good when you are afk, but when you actually press buttons it gets behind mastery. By quite a margin.

Early in xpac brew TCs agreed that mastery has better synergy with EF than crit. It might have changed and I don't believe anyone actually did any math on it, but it won't be anything worth noting regardless; mastery is much more reliable and heavier throughput stat, and EF is just one trait. DPS contribution of EF is also overstated, it's pretty pathetic in comparison to generics.

And as final bit, here's mythic conclave stat contribution. About 800 mastery, triple ToN, so not starving on it. About 1k crit and spyglass trinket. 15% haste, 10%-ish versa. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/511558315676008450/553609486649131048/unknown.png High paku tanking uptime, naturally I was at high stagger (read, free 1.2k mastery) at any time I was taking damage. By your logic it should drive it value through the floor and into the planetary core. Unfortunately, it stays _by far_ the best secondary.
In comparison, mythic blockade https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/511558315676008450/553622747456995338/unknown.png Sadly not triple ToN because I felt like alternative set with mostly hps traits (1xToN 1xEF present still) would be superior. Looking at the results, I was wrong and should be bringing tons of ToNs even on encounter with literally 50% magic damage intake.
The theory is there, I like it. I still think that in practice those weights are almost entirely identical, depending on your current optimization. Also, I agree mastery is your best defensive stat assuming you are executing your rotation correctly, and you can manage the EB stacks smoothly. But I don't agree that it's worth putting this much effort into a passive which you can generate to almost the same efficiency via using different traits and stat prios.

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/bUZwgvbtSRgLhfSsT4xekj

As you can see I sim far higher than you, agility is one of my lowest, were I to drop a few ilvls: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/6myy43Pg5vJaUxj8AJ2YQf

Edit: Forgot to add that agility is being super weird on both these, it's a 1k+ dps increase between 2 items, despite the fact agility is simming really poorly on both.

Agility became less of a value. First sim was 425 haste versa, 2nd sim was 400 versa / mastery. This is purely dps naturally, but my point really is that there's a huge difference on an item with 25 ilvls, despite the fact it actually has our worst stat as the highest, the agility is still colossal. And that 114 mastery will not compensate for what we lose in dps. Especially not with EF and ToN active. And also, I assume every monk is playing around high tolerance and ToN to maximize their output both defensively and offensively. Within the safe limits that is.

Also if you could, please answer

Notable difference in what you see here, from pretty much all abilities cast, and in the first SS I was even dead at one point. I personally don't stack mastery, because it's overkill. What do you make of those 3 particular examples?


The screenshots associated with the question are above it. Do you see an issue in these screenshots?

Also please if it's not too much trouble, can you post the full details of your damage intake on those 5 pulls on Stormwall? Screenshot of it is fine.
BamfDK
saying you sim higher is completely irrelevant because you have a trinket that sims 20% higher than any other trinket, and you have it in 425, please try again.

https://gyazo.com/31289a2eebf48ee7b6e925a36e6bca40

and even at that, a quick comparison of yourself and this applicants logs, despite you simming higher, he is performing better in both damage taken and damage dealt, as well as an enormous difference in survivability specifically on progress.

Even more interesting is that his damage taken is lower than yours in every situation, despite you using massive amounts of externals, even using externals when your not taking damage, and those where called for as i was there. Even recall a healer saying 'no your not taking damage'
Applicant
Now do sim between those 2 pairs of shoes with SD or nizzy instead of RJW. You'll be surprised.
And did you miss "point per point" again? I'm not talking about ilvl points there. In the app itself I initially specified that ilvl is in general the goto. Mainstats all scale exponentially with ilvl increase, secondaries scale linearly. Naturally piece that has 100 more stats (main+secondaries) is better.
I'm also not sure why you bring those sims there at all. 25 ilvl drop on any piece bar some trinkets and possibly socketed rings is something no tank class should do regardless of any stats. I would take 5 ilvl increase virtually always. Priority is for equal ilvl pieces. Why are you trying to read it as every ">" there means "twice better"? It's stupid and counterproductive.

Screenshots show that one of brews was clearly not focused on playing the game. It's honestly a bit of yikes, number of BoSs should be roughly same as autos (10-20% less). Funnily enough total damage intake isn't that higher with substantial rotational issues, so, umm, "gear and class carry"? I'm not saying it proves my point about mastery being the goto, at all, I lack the info to make such statements about the screenshots presented. There might be all kinds of WTFs in healing done, and just dtps is a bad metric (although stacking mastery/armour/versa should bring it down in theory...). EHRPS is okay in some very niche cases, healers' gcds spent on direct healing tank is okay one.

Blockade: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/W4p2xBrLJGhVgFfw
I've compared 11 logs of 4+ min pulls between our two guilds including our kill in 1 of them that went to 6:24, I compared damage taken / mitigated, versus externals received. I found myself with 3+ mil damage taken more or so.

Sheet for damage taken across the board:
https://gyazo.com/39486118241c49064526ee636d1ff7e2

Sheet for Sacrifice
https://gyazo.com/12acfab07bca2de8edb3aedac7dc2847

Sheet for Cocoon:
https://gyazo.com/7157b8c1d7901588547d08f72ed01244

Guardian spirit: (Granted you didn't have a holy priest and I can't seem https://gyazo.com/c65c4a02f7d6b731930f4ff59747519e

As you can see there's a pretty huge difference between externals received, and damage disparity is really not big at all. Hence, do you not believe that you can get away with almost any of the secondary stats, granted the appropriate traits?
Applicant
As I can see you indeed have your guild logs private and I have no access to them. My goal naturally is for me to be in position to see them and see myself there, but I ain't quite there yet :)

Guardian spirit and cocoon don't reduce damage intake directly. Usage of externals on me wasn't effective because was done randomly by healers when they felt like it; only after the raid they admitted they should just use them on warrior that had an unfortunate habit of dying to ires. (I asked for externals to be used on him all the way, but alas).

I don't think comparing total damage taken is fair given likely different total time in fight, especially with one of yours being a kill. Naturally you should have more damage there. Regardless of traits, stats and play.

And to reiterate, I didn't run with 3xToN and/or mastery stacking. I had a pretty fat hps build and it seemed to work fairly good, healers were happy, although I wish I already tested 3xToN that night.

Hence, do you not believe that you can get away with almost any of the secondary stats, granted the appropriate traits?

More than that, I believe I could get away with any traits (perhaps, even some MW ones picked randomly?) and with pure dps trinkets. It doesn't make it optimal. I can even stop pressing tiger palm, it will have incredibly minuscule effect on survivability, but noticeable one on damage. I'll survive, and even lack of damage won't stop from killing the boss if mechanics are played well. But it doesn't make it optimal. It just makes it acceptable. Difference with stats is that they aren't as clear to define, and value can vary depending on tactic and even raid setup (I would definitely value crit quite a bit over versa with hpal+rdudu setup for it would reduce CF overhealing substantially). There's a question if it's even worth trying to minmax them if effect can be small but... at some point, if you can, why not? As I said, swapping non-haste secondaries in any way without dropping ilvl won't shift your dps by more than 1%. It's irrelevant. You either try to minmax for lesser healer attention on you, less chance to die, or you just pick random hasteless piece at same ilvl and call it a day. If you pick second I won't blame you, it's not life or death type of minmaxing.

To compare, if you choose your 425 dps trinket over say stat proc one... it's a survival loss, but a significant dps gain. Much more significant that one you can get from swapping secondaries around. Something that can be worth doing if you think you don't need those extra 200 crit or whatever. That's fair, unlike justifying tank secondary stats optimization for damage.
Sorry I completely forgot you can't see our logs, i'll change it to screenshots.
And Tiger Palm is just not worth pressing outside of the EotT anyway, but regardless I just wanted to clarify if you think there's only 1 way to go about Brewmaster stats +/ traits. We'll have to agree to disagree on the justification for secondary stats for dps. :) That'll be all for my part.

Edit: Also naturally these examples aren't perfect to compare in any case, it was just in terms of a rough overview of a general rule of thumb timeline x pulls.
Yarukaba
Hello there Paul,

Sorry about the long period of no response, We'd be happy to accept you for a trial.

Let me know when you're available to join us should you accept and we can take it from there.

Regards, Yaru
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